In this second Episode in our series on Kindness Pastors Grant Dailey and Derek Bargatze emphasize the importance of human agency in experiencing God's kindness. They reflect on the need to trust in God's plan and have an eternal perspective, rather than being consumed by personal emotions. They highlight the importance of trust in relationships, communication, and forgiveness in resolving conflicts. The conversation stresses the value of reflecting on God's word and seeking objective kindness in interactions. The speakers encourage listeners to recognize and reflect on God's kindness in their lives, learning from past experiences to avoid repeating mistakes.
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[00:00:09.75] - Mitchell Buchanan
Hello. Hello. Hello. My name is Mitchell Buchanan. This is the Sermon podcast for the community church for God. I'm joined by a couple awesome preachers that we had this last month. So we're here with Derek Barghetzi and then Grant Daley as well. Both of them, I think, did a favorite fantastic job. And we're going through our sermon series on kindness, and I think a lot of great things have come from it. And it's one of those topics that seems very simple. And I think the longer we've been with it and meditated on it, I think the more complexity and even things to discuss and talk about. So. But Grant spoke on Hosea eleven, which was just such a rich text. So if you want to give, I think, your main passage you talked through and then some main points that you wanted people to kind of have as takeaways from the sermon, and then we'll just kick start a convo from there.
[00:01:06.93] - Grant Dailey
Yeah. So I read through Hosea eleven, one through four, and the key text was verse four. I led them with chords of kindness, with the bands of love. I became to them as one who eases the oak on their jaw. I bent down to them and fed them. I had two main takeaways that I wanted from this one. I wanted to examine what kindness actually is from the perspective of God in this text. This is a special text because we get kind of unfiltered God's perspective and how he sees things. Looking back, reminiscing on the relationship with his child, the whole section has very paternal language. Israel is his child. Ephraim is his son. So looking back on his relationship with his kidde, he sees it all as a demonstration of kindness, all his activity towards him. And then looking at the verbs throughout that, he taught them to walk. He takes them up by their arms and he strengthens them, he heals them, he leads them. So all this is activity that I wanted to define as kindness from the perspective of God, that when we talk about being kind, these are the kinds of things that we're talking about. And then the second part to it was to recognize that even behind God demonstrating kindness, there is, like, human agency involved in this, that looking back on the wilderness, there was human leadership with Moses, Aaron, the Levites. There was like this institution of the priesthood that helped to facilitate the experience of God being kind and giving for us. A few things to consider, like how God has been kind to us. But then recognizing that so often the experience of God's kindness comes through even the activity of people that are being obedient and faithful to him, especially in leadership roles, and giving us a way to examine how have we received kindness. So.
[00:03:03.91] - Mitchell Buchanan
yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think it's great. And I think something that you. You and Parker on a similar trajectory, but I think really emphasizing that it's, like, today's culture can be a runaway train of, like, my experience and my feelings, like, dictates how I'm perceiving, like, everything. And I think you definitely introduced that there. We should be able to take from this scripture what objectively, like, what we know from kindness and that, like, hey, a harsh word or a conflict or even something that we immediately perceive as, like, I'm not comfortable. Or it's like, oh, I don't like that. That, like, we can't just categorize it as, like, oh, that's not applicable. Or, I want to reject that. That. It's like, even, you know, all of Hosea is working through how Israel is responding. The Lord sees it as his kindness, and, like, love, Israel sees it as something entirely different.
[00:03:58.78] - Grant Dailey
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think the text really invited me to consider that it's more than just a feeling, you know, like, I did play into, like, we get the rights.
[00:04:06.59] - Mitchell Buchanan
that song for.
[00:04:07.62] - Grant Dailey
Oh, yeah, that's. That's got to be an expensive one, dude.
[00:04:12.12] - Mitchell Buchanan
Surely. Surely my rendition doesn't cost us anything, though.
[00:04:14.84] - Grant Dailey
No, it wasn't. It wasn't on. It wasn't even the right melody.
[00:04:18.18] - Derek Bargatze
wasn't even the right.
[00:04:18.99] - Grant Dailey
Not even the right melody.
[00:04:20.17] - Derek Bargatze
was about to say. I was like, I don't recognize that song.
[00:04:22.31] - Grant Dailey
Nobody would. So I did lean into my personality a little bit and even acknowledge, in my conflicts with my wife, it's like I want to instantly invalidate how a person feels, which is, I'm being playful and hyperbolic. But the text did invite it, because Hosea is so interesting, because it's God's perspective. We get it. I don't think we often get that in the Bible that we don't often see. This is how God sees and how he feels about it and what it was like to him. You know, through the narrative, we get the experience often of the people who were there, and then sometimes we get a word from God that helps frame it. But when you look at those wilderness wanderings, especially in numbers, where you get this series of. The series of complaints and all the different things that emerge, they do not feel like God has taken care of them. You get really extreme cases in numbers ten and eleven where they're like, God basically wants to kill our kids and hand our wives over as plunder. And that's how they feel about God, that they led him out there, that he led them out there to die. And it's even so severe that by the time you get to Hosea, they want nothing to do with God anymore. They're like, they want Egypt. They want Babylon. They want Assyria. They want the gods of those people. And, you know, I tried to run with the metaphor and play it up. It's like. It's like us as kids, you know, I can see that my. As a parent, my kids are pretty young, and I haven't had, like, my oldest is twelve, so I don't have the. I have yet to have, like, the true teenager experience. That is where a lot of this comes to a head. But as kids, we know what it's like to look back on our parents and be like, they were so bad to me, or, you know, like that. Like that brooding teenager that's just gonna be like, you were never good to me. You never took care of me. And conceding that that could be objectively true in some very extreme cases, it was not true for me. I had really good parents, but still, somehow I wrote a narrative in my head that it was like, they mistreated me. It was all their fault. I'm gonna have to work through all of that.
[00:06:31.06] - Derek Bargatze
guitar in your room. It's
[00:06:31.81] - Grant Dailey
It's like nobody understands me. So you get the perspective of Israel that they had so much to complain about, and they felt like God was gonna kill him.
[00:06:40.93] - Mitchell Buchanan
Mm.
[00:06:41.89] - Grant Dailey
And sure, they felt that. It's not as if they didn't feel that, but. But it's just cause they felt that doesn't mean it was right.
[00:06:50.23] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah.
[00:06:51.14] - Grant Dailey
And what God's saying is, I even ran with the Wangos. He's like, I led them with chords of kindness. He's like, you, like, I have to imagine, if you imagine the communication, he's like, you felt like you were in bondage, right? You felt like you were like that. I was, like, dragging you through on a leash. He was like, if I did have you on a corridor, on a bandaid, it was of kindness. It was of love. And that really invited me to explore that. Like, how we feel about something doesn't necessarily validate it as kind or unkind in that way. The objective thing is what is going to define something as being kind? And for me, in this text, it is what we see in action. I taught him to walk, so teaching him to walk. There is an educational component that you teach somebody, and it's such a rich method metaphor, too, because, you know, we've. We've had kids, and teaching them to walk is not like one step. You know, it's. Once they take that first step, it's not like they got it.
[00:07:50.76] - Derek Bargatze
yeah.
[00:07:51.25] - Grant Dailey
It's an ongoing process. And then even trying to help them continue to walk. And then even part of, like, I was reflecting on it later, even after the sermon, something that I feel like I always have ideas after sermon. I should have got that one. But part of the image is like.
[00:08:10.44] - Mitchell Buchanan
that would have brought the house up.
[00:08:11.58] - Grant Dailey
You know, as parents, we teach our kids to walk. Cause we want them to walk with us. You know, like the joy of. I've got a little 18 month at home, and she's a wild one. She's been walking for some time now, but the joy of it is, like that moment where they actually can walk on their own. And then you're like, you give them your hand. Like, she loves to hold this finger, and it's like the joy of teaching your kid to walk is they get to walk with you now. Like, they get to go with you, and that's what you want, like, with your kids. And that's, like, what God wants in this passage. Like, he's teaching them to walk so they can walk.
[00:08:41.88] - Mitchell Buchanan
think even, like, the same imagery of, like, you want them to walk because it's so arduous if they're refusing to walk.
[00:08:49.34] - Grant Dailey
Yeah. How are you going to get anywhere?
[00:08:50.96] - Mitchell Buchanan
they're crawling or it's like, they're getting dirty. And it's like, hey, like, I. You know, you could just imagine God, like, I am so patient. I love my child. Like you love your child. The kid gets old enough. It's. You're annoyed and stressed. You're like, you. You need to walk. You need to mature. Like, we're past this stage. You know, it's like, it can.
[00:09:10.24] - Derek Bargatze
not going over there. That is a cliff.
[00:09:13.86] - Grant Dailey
Especially, I imagine, you know, with God, who has somewhere he wants to go. Like, he has a mission, he has a plan, he has something he's doing. He's like, y'all. Y'all need to be walking with me. So I talked about the educational component that there is even considering how God is creating a healthy environment for us to, um, to receive support and to learn, because even part of the role is parents helping our kids walk. You know, like, I'm not going to start my kid off on, like, a gravel lot that sloped. It's usually like, you know, like on the carpet or on the rug. It's a safe environment. So when they inevitably fall, they're not bloodied and bruised.
[00:09:52.27] - Grant Dailey
You know, like that. So part of the intention is, like, when we have safe environments created for us to learn and make mistakes and not do, like, irreparable damage.
[00:10:00.89] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah.
[00:10:01.30] - Grant Dailey
As we're trying to learn and, you know, the support, the healing aspect. So then this gives us, like, an objective definition for what kindness is. How. How do we perceive an action as kind? Does it hit that?
[00:10:12.72] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah.
[00:10:13.17] - Grant Dailey
Is, you know, how has God been teaching me and training me and giving me support and giving me a place that's safe so I can actually mature and grow in a healthy way so that I actually can walk with him and I keep in pace with him and go with him. And even that activity here, it gets misperceived by his kids as being harsh or mean or oppressive or the prophet Michael is going to say, how have I wearied you? You get the voice of his people, like, we're just wearied, but you're wearing us out, God. And you hear him. Hear. He's like, that's what his kids sound like. They're like the punk teenagers that are like, you retired. You don't know me, dad. You know? I don't know.
[00:11:02.25] - Mitchell Buchanan
I think, I mean, you brought up an example of, you know, teaching at the academy, and Greg kind of throwing you into a. Throwing you into the fire of having to give a recap. And I think your perspective initially is like, dude, this is so unfair. I want to, like, eject out of here. I'm never doing this again. And then looking back on it and seeing as, like, you know, kindness, insofar as you were able to truly learn from it, it was a safe place to learn and had, like, an opportunity to, like, mature in that. And, like, because I think there, it can feel like that this is almost given license to, like, hey, any harsh word or correction, I know we're supposed to love correction. It's just we can get into our feelings so quickly, but, like, a correction where it's like, hey, somebody's super certain, and it can always feel, like, almost like, license for, like, hey, if you know God's word, like, you can just talk down to people like, oh, you're not doing that right, or whatever. And I think it really puts a lot of responsibility on every individual to be connected to God's word, even in the text. It's not just like, hey, I led. You know, it says, like, with infants, like, there's an individuality to it where it's like, he shows, like, I've been down to them and fed them. Like, it's an individual responsibility. Like, we have to be connected to God's word, God's spirit, where it's like, hey, if there is a tough word that comes to you or, like, a moment that feels like, you know, cords of bondage, like, we have to be processing that through God's word and, like, praying through it and saying, like, hey, like, where am I finding you in this, Lord? And not just responding, like, in our feelings to it?
[00:12:41.04] - Grant Dailey
Yeah, I think that's. It's so necessary, you know? You know, we feel how we feel, and that's fine. That's not invalid, but, yeah, we don't let that then define the actions of another person, that we have to look at the root room and be like, what are they doing for us? Was this intended to help me along the lines of how God gives in this text? And I think that even as you were referring to that story, I was thinking of another story, because I remember one of the first.
[00:13:15.12] - Mitchell Buchanan
you thought that was being thrown to the fire?
[00:13:16.79] - Grant Dailey
No, no, I just, you know. You know, I had. I had a choice. I know. Even reflecting. Because. Because this happened years ago. I think at this point, this was seven, eight years ago that this happened. So it's not like I haven't thought about it since then, but in the moment, it felt. I was like. I never felt he was being mean to me, but I was thinking about. I was like. I felt the, like, the potential rising up within me to be, like, embittered by it, like he did something wrong in that moment. But then I had to stop and acknowledge, like, no, that was good. It was a good teaching moment for me. I learned from it. It's not like, you know. And he did it with the mercy of the students, didn't know what was happening, even if there was an awkward shift from him taking control of the moment away from me. But it was a good moment. But I was thinking about one of the first times I ever played music with Greg and unnamed Servant 2.0 back in 2013. I had originally auditioned with him, and I was playing acoustic guitar, and we were playing the song, and I wasn't so keenly aware of how good his ear was with music, and I kept playing a certain chord voicing that wasn't exactly the right chord voicing, but I was like, it's easier on acoustic guitar. I'll cheat it. He kept pausing. He's like, who's playing that chord? Somebody's playing it. He's like, sus two chords and he's playing. And I was like, oh, that was me. Stop doing it. You're ruining the song. And I was like, there's no way with 13 people up here on stage that my note was ruined. But it's like, at the same time, it was, it was a good teaching lesson because I think that he didn't attend to my feelings and I could be like, I'm a musician. I know what Sus chords are. Don't talk down to me. But instead it was like, sus chord is a suspended core. Suspended chord. Yeah.
[00:15:05.44] - Grant Dailey
You dropped, you dropped the third for a second or fourth, and it changes the tone of the chord ambiguously.
[00:15:12.23] - Mitchell Buchanan
talk down to us. We know when you suck playing guitar.
[00:15:15.64] - Grant Dailey
It was a moment because then I had to realize I was like, so I'm in a band now. This isn't like me in my bedroom with a guitar. And I affect how things happen. It's necessary to have that correction. Otherwise I'm just gonna think I can do whatever I want and then derail. It was good. This is a good lesson. But again, if, if we lead by how something makes us feel, which I think broadly is more culture tells us about kindness, you made me feel this way certain way right then, then, like, our rubrics totally off and we're going to misperceive something we'll actually miss where somebody was really caring for us.
[00:15:49.52] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah.
[00:15:49.89] - Grant Dailey
And I really, I felt emotional, kind and, yeah, I felt emotional reading this passage because you get the sense that God's kids have totally miscast him and he just misunderstood. He just feels so misrepresented in that.
[00:16:03.34] - Mitchell Buchanan
which, like, what could feel worse of, like, your kids, you know, your kids telling you you're a bad father and it's like, what other intention do you have than to do everything you can for your kids?
[00:16:16.21] - Grant Dailey
You know, especially because he's pointing back to when they're young, when they were infants, and, you know, none of our kids are aware of what we did for them up to what, like three, 4510 years old, you know, like, my kids are funny. They barely remember, like six years old.
[00:16:30.37] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah.
[00:16:30.89] - Grant Dailey
So, you know, like, he's, there's, there's so much missed time where because of our lack of maturation, we didn't have the capacity to perceive that we were experiencing kindness.
[00:16:41.05] - Grant Dailey
And then we have the audacity to look back and be like, you're so bad to me. And then he's just like, you know, like, flashing in his mind, like, from God, the perspective of God. It's like all the times he was picking them up, they didn't know that's. It's a really sad line that I took them up by their arms, but they did not know that I healed them. Like, that's. So I think on one hand, it's so necessary for us to pause and just recognize and look back and learn to look back rightly on our life, God has been so kind to me.
[00:17:10.36] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah.
[00:17:10.77] - Grant Dailey
Like, he has really supported me and taken care of me, even though it's been a difficult time or difficult season, or even though I had all these things that were telling me it was bad.
[00:17:21.18] - Derek Bargatze
I feel like we have, like, this rubric in our mind of how we're supposed to be cared for. Like, how we're supposed to. How someone's supposed to be kind. In this case, like, the Israelites obviously were very like, God. You were. You're supposed to do this. Like we're supposed to be. I don't know what, just comparative to the other nation. Yeah. And just supposed to be just, you should have ingested. And it turned into that. And so we create these expectations, and people don't match up to those expectations, and we don't think to reevaluate our own. Our own ideas. That's what I loved about your sermon, I think, was like. Was like, because we're talking about God's perspective.
[00:17:59.92] - Grant Dailey
Yeah.
[00:18:00.77] - Derek Bargatze
it's like, if there's a perspective that is overrides anyone's, it's going to be his. And so, like, so at that point, we have to go like, man, I think sometimes we just don't. We don't go. We don't take the second to go like, oh, wait, my perspective's wrong, or my understanding of this is wrong. And instead, to go like, God, help teach me what this means. Cause there's like, it's kind of ridiculous right now. All the data that's coming out, that's telling people, like, how to grow and how to become a stronger person and how to become an educated person or how to be successful. It's like research data is like, you have to struggle. You have to go through trials. You have to gain this kind of grit. You have to become something that's like, all you see happening. They leave from oppression and go into the wilderness. You know, it's like God's trying to make them something, and they're fighting that experience that they're having in the wilderness constantly. And it's like, at some point, like, when do we just give up, like you're saying, and let it go? To say, like, all right, I gotta trust. It's just really hard to do that when you're having a really hard time.
[00:19:09.65] - Grant Dailey
Yeah.
[00:19:10.18] - Derek Bargatze
when it feels like you're suffering, it feels like you're struggling through something. That's, like, that's what I think becomes so amazing for some people who are going through, I've not gone, I mean, I lost my best friend, but I've not gone through, like, you know, in the personal sense of sickness and things like that on my own self in that regard. And I've, and I, and I'm always something I always get amazed with is people's ability to still have that very healthy, strong perspective on God taking care of them and being with them. There's something special there, something that they understand about God that I don't yet. In that regard, does that make sense?
[00:19:44.60] - Grant Dailey
Yeah.
[00:19:45.30] - Derek Bargatze
so I think your sermon kind of hits that. Like, there's something. Something they lacked, maybe a lack of perspective, maybe. I don't, I don't know. I want to simplify it to say they're just being stubborn, but how I'd like to be able to think through it a little more so we can evaluate it for ourselves, but I don't know if what I'm saying is making sense.
[00:20:02.70] - Grant Dailey
No, that makes sense.
[00:20:04.26] - Mitchell Buchanan
just hearing you. I thought of, you know, like, romans one, where there can be a tendency as, as people to lose sight of our own humanity and feel like, hey, this is like, basically my experience is the most important or what I'm going through. And it's like we're all been created, like, you know, we're all finite. And it's, I think having that perspective, if Israel had had that perspective of, like, hey, we are, you know, like, God is leading us and we're connected to a story that goes beyond us, goes beyond, like, our preferences or where, you know, like, we're at. And I think having that, you know, setting our minds on things above, having that eternal perspective where we don't allow ourselves to come to a place where, you know, our feelings become paramount, our experience is the end all, be all. It's like, hey, like, certainly no one wants to be, like, taken advantage of or to, like, unduly suffer or to be, like, mistreated. And I think as mature people, we should be able to work through all those, but I think to come to a place in life where you're even blocking out maybe how God had worked or had been working, because you really just aren't in that perspective where you acknowledge that the Lord is doing greater things beyond what we can, like, perceive.
[00:21:19.82] - Grant Dailey
If I were to run with the metaphor, right, of the parental language here, like, one of the fundamental issues with kids, like, of all ages, right, and we were subject to it, too, as kids, is that kids, like, know nothing but think they know everything. Like, this is, like, fundamental human problem 101, right? Like, it's even. I've experienced this already, my twelve year old, where she's like, I thought about.
[00:21:44.07] - Mitchell Buchanan
doing, like, an earmuffs. Like, telling Leon would be like, all right, if you're naughty, I'll just go ahead and put on. Just go ahead and scare.
[00:21:52.46] - Grant Dailey
She needs some help with her friends, and I'm giving her advice, but she's like, she already knows that I'm wrong. And she knows that what she is doing will work, even though what she's doing objectively is only making things worse. But this is also, like, a fundamental problem in the Bible. It's like God's, like giving these first humans his first kids. He's, like, giving them direction. He's like, hey, don't. Don't eat from that tree. Don't go over there. And then the woman is sitting there and is like, did God really say, you know, it's kind of like, you know, they hear it, but they're like, I think we know better.
[00:22:24.25] - Grant Dailey
And I think part of what enters into us as human beings is we just think we know better. You know, like, we could be experiencing something tough, whether it's something we're going through, what you're describing, or whether it is, like, the tough love of a person correcting us. And I think part of the remedy of that is to learn to trust. You know, like, I want my kids to trust me, to trust me as a dad.
[00:22:49.53] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah.
[00:22:50.04] - Grant Dailey
With my little 18 month old right now, she keeps her fun thing to do is like, she's figured out a way to climb up the stove and try to touch the gas flame. And it's like, this is the dumbest thing ever. And I'm not down with gentle parenting personally. And so I just pop her hand.
[00:23:06.45] - Grant Dailey
And every time she looks at me like I'm the worst thing alive, she cries. And she just kind of looks at me like, why won't you let me up?
[00:23:14.68] - Grant Dailey
And, you know, as a really crude metaphor, but again, a metaphor that even.
[00:23:18.67] - Derek Bargatze
she doesn't know what she don't know.
[00:23:20.04] - Grant Dailey
She doesn't know. But she thinks she knows better than me. But part of what she has to learn to do is trust me so that when I tell her no, she just doesn't do it. Rather than me saying no, her trying it, her getting popped, her getting sad, then mad, then, you know. But we do this as, like, you know, fully grown, adult human beings with God. We're like, I think because one of the questions you asked me here, I'm gonna read your cheat sheet. You said that, you know, when we're experiencing, like, a correction or a rebuke, which I thought. I thought that the sermon was a great lead in to what Parker did the next week, then maybe strike me with kindness. Yeah, that was. That was such a challenge to me. I'm excited to listen to that one. But when we experience, like, the correction or rebuke from somebody or something that may not feel how we expect it to feel, how do we push through until we can sit and process? Because I do think, you know, sometimes there may be things that come to us quick, but sometimes it may take some time to, like, really evaluate what was happening in an interaction and come to it with some mature reflection. I think how we do this, we have to learn to trust. Like, do we really trust the people that God has put in our lives? Do we trust them? And I think if we don't, if our instinct is to just distrust people and every time something is said to us that doesn't feel validating in the way we want it to, then we instantly go to a position, I knew they didn't care about me. They don't love me. They don't do for me. That's. We don't trust people.
[00:25:01.63] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah.
[00:25:02.32] - Grant Dailey
And, like, on the tide of that, we don't trust God. You know, we don't trust it, because I think, you know, the whole time God's talking here in Hosea, you got to remember that the figure of Moses was looming in all this, right? Because it's like, how did God lead them? Except by, like, I love teaching numbers nine in high school Bible classes. Because it's like, you. You go through all the command of the Lord, the command of the Lord, the charge of the Lord, charge the Lord, the command. The command, command. The word of the Lord by Moses at the end of the day text. And it's that curious phrase at the very end that's, like, all these commands, all this leading. It was all coming through this guy. And for me, that invited, like, more consideration of, like, so often we experience the kindness of God from people that are being obedient to him and serving him. And how easy is it for us to misinterpret something that's intended as an act of kindness, as something that's not, just because it doesn't placate how we feel. So I think how we do that, we kind of just trust people. Like, trust that that person in that position has my best interest in mind and they're trying to be obedient to God. Yeah, but we, I think we start, we've just been tutored to distrust each other in society.
[00:26:17.65] - Derek Bargatze
like, I think some of it's, we don't want to get hurt, you know, so you don't want to jump in on the trust so fast because you're like, I don't want to trust, and then bee, and then not be right about the trust because for whatever reason that trusting that person, everything was going to go great.
[00:26:31.64] - Grant Dailey
Which underneath that, I guess, is the suspicion is the assumption that everybody's going to hurt us.
[00:26:36.24] - Derek Bargatze
right.
[00:26:37.18] - Grant Dailey
And maybe for Israel, that's part of the problem, too, because it's like so many of their issues with God in the wilderness. I called it the wilderness wanderings earlier. That was like the perspective of Israel. They were just wondering, but the perspective of God, it was like a classroom, but so much of their experience was characterized by the fact that they just came out of this place where the ruler of the land really did hurt him, really did want to hurt him. And they just bring that experience and assume it onto God, which perhaps we can understand. But he feels it's really unfair from his perspective. He's like, I wasn't doing that.
[00:27:12.77] - Mitchell Buchanan
I think, hmm. Yeah, I think there's a lot of practical things we can do. When it feel in the, in that situation where it's like, hey, we're getting like a corrective word or a word that feels harsh and your end is to trust someone. I think even, you know, even in our community, when that's happened, when there's been like a disagreement, even for someone to leave, it feels that, that it's almost the, it almost gets extrapolated the opposite way where it's like, hey, where to trust people. And then that becomes perceived as like, hey, you can't have like a question or you can't even say like, oh, here's my experience, or what's going on there. So I think it is, but it's a way where it's like, if we trust first and even just other, like, practical ways. I'm like, hey, like, be slow to speak. Like, give your chance. Give yourself a chance to reflect and see, like, hey, does this match up with the rubric of, like, what is objective kindness to me? But it's like, I think along those lines of if someone feels like, no, I've really been hurt, or I really have this complaint, it's like the. It's. It's not reasonable to think, oh, well, you should just trust the people in leadership. Don't say anything. And it's like. Cause even if that was God's perspective, even, like, hey, God, I feel like you did me wrong. Like, I think the Lord is so patient and kind to show how that's not the case.
[00:28:30.85] - Grant Dailey
Yeah.
[00:28:31.96] - Mitchell Buchanan
I think I never want to just call on Greg, who being like, hey, this hurt my feelings. Like, on last Tuesday and last month and here, and I'm like, dude, do we want to set up, like, 30 meetings across, like, the whole week to go through every little thing? Like, I think trusting initially, like, hey, I know that Greg has my best interest and, like, wants to see me mature and grow. So, like, I'm starting from that position, right? And then I think I give it time to, like, reflect on it. Like, hey, like, how. What did that produce to me? Like, what was, like, the thing that happened from there? If I still have questions, like, I should be able to voice that. But it's like, I think it becomes almost like it said, like, hey, we should trust each other. And that equates to people. Like, well, I can never. We don't even allow people to talk or, like, contribute in this community. It's like, that's total bunk. Yeah, but, like, I think it is. People kind of, like, taking that perspective and it in a negative light where it's like, oh, well, then I can't even question anything. It's like, that's not the point of any of this. Nor did God want to raise people, you know, Israel, to be someone who isn't questioning or thinking through, hey, is this bondage or is this kindness? It's like, the mental process of examining where you're at isn't the problem. It's the problem that you aren't having the opportunity to adjust your perspective.
[00:29:53.18] - Grant Dailey
I do think, and I think that's why it's important for us to, like, hold all these values together, you know, like, alongside each other, all the things we're working through. Like, they work in concert, right? So saying that we should begin from a position of trust it doesn't exclude the potential that a person could genuinely offend me. You know, I think we can't, we can't be so simplistic where it's either trust everything, trust nothing. That's the way we go. You know, it's like, start by trusting that a person had your interests in mind, but that doesn't mean that they're immune to not offending or sinning against you, which, you know, ties into like, the theme of just turning through on forgiveness. And then you have the obligation to enact, like, that communication, you know, like if, like, I trust that Derek has my best interest in mind. This guy may like, piss me off sometimes. Yeah. And I can't be like, I trust him, so therefore I shouldn't think that, but I can be like, he really made me mad. And even as he made me mad, at least go, I know he had my best interest mind, but he still really made me mad. And then it's still on me to say, hey, man, you made me mad. And then we work through and then we forgive each other, right? So I think, yeah, I hear what you're saying. I'm not trying to like, call for just wanton, blind trust of everybody without, you know, consideration.
[00:31:12.57] - Mitchell Buchanan
I think all of, I think I brought up in the beginning, it seems, even opportunity to bring it back up. Like the. Our process. We should be so connected to God's word, you know, even, even from Hosea eleven, seeing how God loved people through, loved Israel through very difficult circumstances, or at least how they perceived it, like, in every opportunity that we have, like, hey, reflect back on God's word. Is this objective kindness? Like, am I really, you know, what was meant by that? Or how did that affect me in an objective way where it's like, you can try to recognize God's hand.
[00:31:49.59] - Derek Bargatze
I seeing this? Right. My understanding, that's what I liked about your idea of the sermon, of starting it with focusing on it being God's perspective. Yeah. Because at that point, then we have to go. Yeah. There's just a huge, I don't think misunderstandings strong enough words, but. But there's just a huge, huge. It's only where I could think of, but misunderstanding on that. On that situation. So where you have to. We have to be put ourselves in the position to say, like, all right, I need, I need to actually listen to a different perspective on this. I need to see I'm mistaken somewhere. And it's when we aren't able to do that is when we fall into these problems, like, that where God feels the way that he feels. Like, you guys hit me with that feeling. Like, when if a kid, like your daughter not trusting you and things like that, like this the one thing, this whole time, he's like, right. I have had nothing but your best interest in my mind this entire time. And this is your saddest feeling, man. Like, I did my absolute best, best to try and get you to find out who you are, to make you tougher, to teach you, to educate you, to be someone who can educate your own kids, to grow you up, but you thought you knew better.
[00:33:03.39] - Grant Dailey
We may just not be, we may not be primed as a culture to handle that thought, though. I read an article recently, it was Mother's Day last year. That's what it was. And the statistic they gave is that one in four adult children lives alienated from their, their parents, like, intentionally not because they just moved or one in four in the United States. They were noting, it's kind of an epidemic that, and you could kind of see the trend amongst our generation that we, like, look back at how our parents acted and we start to bemoan the boomer generation, wherever it came by, and they treated us so bad. But the stat was. Yeah, that, like, one in four adult children, they live alienated intentionally by choice. They do not want anything to do with their parents.
[00:33:44.38] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah, they cut them off.
[00:33:46.11] - Grant Dailey
I know my parents experienced that with my brother. He wants nothing to do with him. He won't talk to him. He's blocked them. He's moved. So I think that there's something, there's something in, like, the spirit of the air right now that's fueling that. And then the really sad thing on the text is that God's sitting there on the other side of that, and.
[00:34:03.07] - Derek Bargatze
just like, he's wanting them.
[00:34:04.29] - Grant Dailey
He's like, that's what he's like. They don't know me like that. That comes up earlier in Hosea is that he longs for this time when his people wouldn't call him baal anymore. Like, they don't even know who he is anymore. They're not even talking. They're talking to the wrong person this whole time. And he's so kind to him. He's sitting there answering on the other side, but they don't even know who they're talking to. And it's such a, such a humbling text to consider that we could put God in that position.
[00:34:30.96] - Mitchell Buchanan
Yeah.
[00:34:31.84] - Grant Dailey
And think we're totally validated. And, and he's just like, I've been so kind to you.
[00:34:37.11] - Derek Bargatze
hmm. Yeah. You're perfect for this text. I would never have if they had handed me this text, dude, I've been.
[00:34:45.51] - Grant Dailey
Like, this was actually. This may be too behind, like, pulling back the curtain too much, but this was the one time I've actually been able to pick a text.
[00:34:53.57] - Derek Bargatze
I was given to do this.
[00:34:55.01] - Grant Dailey
I was given options. You would pick this, and I was like, dude, this is.
[00:34:58.82] - Derek Bargatze
felt gold man
[00:34:59.63] - Grant Dailey
yeah, this is a fun, challenging text.
[00:35:03.03] - Derek Bargatze
mean, I would thank me, and I pick this verse, dude, like, kindness, you got. Hey, kindness. All right. Hosea Eleven four. I would just never. I would never my life. I could picture picking this verse. It was so good. You did so good. Holy moly.
[00:35:20.59] - Mitchell Buchanan
it is. Like, even I think Derek's, like, response. It is. It seems so opposite to think of, like, kindness, and it's like, are the text we've been talking about, like, you feel like you're suffering. Like, that's Israel. I feel like I'm suffering. It's like, I think, you know, overall, just, like, jarring, being able to, like, jar awake, like, from our experience, whatever. Like, conflicts or whatever we're going through. Like, hey, like, you know, seek God's word. Like, even, you know, understand and reflect back on, like, how God has been present in every single moment, because, like, I think we can neglect our past experiences so quickly and then just lose sight of, like, God has been so faithful, so good. And now, like, unless we take that perspective, we can easily come to a place where it's like, we're now calling him bail, and we don't even realize where we've been gone off track, and it's like, yeah, I think we're towards the end. Anybody else have anything else they want to pop in or.
[00:36:21.67] - Derek Bargatze
mean, you know, you highlighted this, but this is probably one of the things I took away that Grant said that probably moved me the most was the. As we look back and reflect on life, we need to engage a filter where we can see the kindness of God in ways that we weren't aware of. We need to develop a sensitivity to see God's action, God's action as kindness. And I like that. I like that challenge that you put for me to go, like, yes, I need. The ego needs to go, whatever I think is right and best in the world. We've been living, humanity, arguably. How long have we been around? And we're still confused. That's how good. That's how good we are. So we take no notes except the reality that we're all trying to figure things out and go, like, all right, I need to see where God's kindness is. I do not want to repeat the same mistakes. People before us have improved.
[00:37:13.84] - Grant Dailey
The important part of that filter, too, is learning to develop it so that you can engage it quicker. Because, you know, like, I think I would. I would feel terrible as a father if my kids were only able to recognize how I've been a good dad 20 years from now.
[00:37:26.84] - Grant Dailey
You know, and that's like, if all we're ever doing for God is, like, decades after the fact, like, that was so kind, God. And he's like, I really wish you would have caught on to that. Like, that'd be so much better for all of us. Yeah, I think learning to. Yeah. To develop that, which will require some looking back and examining and reflecting and, like, listening to his perspective, trying to understand God, redefining them, understand better, and.
[00:37:50.65] - Mitchell Buchanan
Even, like, learn his word more. you're saying, like, you know how often deuteronomy, like, remember the way the Lord has led you? Like, it's being trained up to, like, remember back and, like, reflect properly on, like, God's goodness because you can develop.
[00:38:03.82] - Grant Dailey
That so that you can understand it in the moment.
[00:38:06.23] - Derek Bargatze
Right.
[00:38:06.65] - Grant Dailey
It's like the looking back. Remembering is supposed to give you a way forward and train you forward so that, so that when you're experiencing it in a moment, it doesn't feel so foreign and so bad and you can more quickly. And that, that's a process. So, yeah, it does happen by, like, re examining and evaluating and listening to God and those things and learning to be sensitive to his voice and his word and defining things appropriately with the criteria he gives us, not, not the cheapness of cultural kindness.
[00:38:37.55] - Derek Bargatze
what I'd see with Jesus when he says, I only do what I see my father doing. I think this kind of connects. Like, he just knew his father so well, trusted God so well, like, so much that, that he could see where God was moving in every situation that he was in or whatever he was doing, Jesus was seeing it for us to know God that well, to be able to do that. So it's not. So. That's what I liked about what you're saying. I was like, yeah, this is part of that.
[00:39:03.94] - Grant Dailey
Yeah, yeah, it's good.
[00:39:06.96] - Mitchell Buchanan
great. Dude, that felt awesome. I love, this is such a good text. Great job taking it out. Yeah, dude, just you pick all the rest.
[00:39:15.65] - Grant Dailey
Thanks, Brandon, for giving the option.
[00:39:19.13] - Mitchell Buchanan
Nice.
[00:39:19.80] - Mitchell Buchanan
you, Brandon. Thank you. Everyone for listening. Again, this is the sermon podcast for the church community for God. Wherever you're watching listening, leave a comment. We would love to hear from you. Subscribe, five star review, anything kind. Feel free to do that.
[00:39:35.92] - Derek Bargatze
should know how to do that now, definitely.
[00:39:39.32] - Mitchell Buchanan
and always in, you know, in this manner, the word is meant to be like, I think, lived out with friends, with one another. Don't let any sermon we have at church just stay there because it doesn't do any good. If we just hear and then leave and we're not actually working out, how does it affect me? How do I live this out? And then how is God's word speaking to me? So, hopefully, this can spark some great conversations with wherever you're at, and we'll see you back at church.
[00:40:04.71] - Grant Dailey
Amen.
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